Welcome to the trust deed forum LornaPTD.

A trust deed contribution is usually worked out by subtracting your reasonable expenditure from your income. It's as simple as that. I'm therefore a little confused about the subject of 75% of your surplus versus 100% of your surplus. Could you explain a little more about that side of things please?

£568 for groceries seems to be in line with the guideline ranges used for trust deeds for a family of two adults and three children. It's also within the guidelines for three adults and three children, though your trustee may consider that the 21 year old should be financially independent from you and therefore not included in the equation (you can check this with your trustee, it may depend on the exact circumstances).

The figure you have provided for clothing is also in line with the guideline ranges.

There shouldn't be any "slack" built into the trust deed budgets to allow saving for the £5000 for the car. The point of the monthly contributions to the trust deed is that you pay over as much as you can reasonably afford in order that your creditors receive a reasonable return on what is owed to them. The money for the car is likely to have to come from additional monthly contributions after your normal trust deed period is finished or via a contribution from a third party.

There seem to be some issues about budget expectations and general understanding here (which may well be a result of you not having been fully informed from the start).
I do think that it's very poor that you aren't being treated respectfully and that sometimes you aren't receiving any response at all.

This sounds a nightmare situation for you and while I can't offer any practical help, I do feel it would be important for others using this forum if you named and shamed this company as nobody else should be put through this grief. It does illustrate so clearly the importance of using a reputable and sympathetic firm to manage your TD.

Whatever your financial situation, you deserve NOT to feel like you are being bullied and treated like rubbish.

I am inclined to agree with TDA though, the expenditure you mention regarding groceries and clothing does sound perfectly adequate and a 21-year old should be financially independent if not contributing towards household expenses unless there are health issues which prevent this.

Hiya thanks for responding to my post.

My main gripe is the fact that the agent told me that the £3500 would be dealt with when the time came, but now the IP is saying that it was an excluded Creditor from the start. I've looked at what we signed and this is the case. But not the way it was explained by the agent!

On our I&E, initially, our Income = £4271, our expenses as per guidlines etc - £3517 leaving £754 surplus. £566 (75%) of the surplus was offered to the Creditors. The new I&E state, our Income as £4194, our expenses as £3589, leaving a surplus of £605.(75%) of this surplus would be £453. But they then add that if they used 100% surplus of this it leaves us £39 between the £566 monthly contribution agreed at the onset and what we have available every month. Why now can they change the goalposts??

They also just dropped allowable expenses for School trips, newspapers and Laundry/cleaning from the new I&E without even discussing this.

It seems the goalposts keep getting moved in favour of themselves!

Thanks for your support Uncle Ben. My oldest son, often has to bail us out and buy groceries etc. This is his contribution. If he did actually give us money this would go straight to to Trust Deed and we would be even worse off. I don't want to name and shame, I'm just so angry and upset. They promise the world at the start. Flick thru the paperwork at lightning speed and expect you to take it all in. Soon as your on their books, nobody's interested in your wellbeing!! Think the people in this firm forget it is our sad financial state that keeps them in a job!

Sorry, Trust Deed Assistant

Re your comment about the car, does this mean that if we don't have the lump sum of £5600 at the end of the Trust Deed, then we will need to pay it back in installments? Does this mean that we will not be discharged after 42 months?

Hi LornaPTD.

The monthly contributions, and contributions in lieu of assets (like your car) are two entirely different things.

As such you'll be expected to pay over what you can afford each month during the agreed term. As an additional commitment, you'll need to raise the money connected to the car. In terms of the car there are really three ways to deal with this:

1 - You extend the trust deed to pay the money over.
2 - Someone comes up with the money for you.
3 - You sell the vehicle.

Discharge from the trust deed will only happen once the monthly contributions are completed and the asset has been dealt with.

I think you need to bear in mind the position of your creditors. They agreed to the trust deeds going ahead on the basis that you would pay £566 per month in the expectation that they would receive a certain amount of the money owed to them from you. Your circumstances have changed, but according to the numbers that you have provided you can still afford to pay £566. I therefore think it's fair enough that your creditors continue to benefit from that level of contribution in accordance with the agreement you all made at the start.

However, I don't think it's fair that certain allowances were reduced without this even being discussed with you.

Please don't think this is for the benefit of your trustee though. Their fees have been agreed with the creditors in advance.

We do often hear in this forum about situations where an agent promises one thing, and then the reality is somewhat different. The problem of course is that once reassured by an agent on a subject, people often don't consider it necessary to ask the trust deed firm the same question or questions. I'm really sorry that you have been affected in this way and can totally understand your frustration on that subject.

For anyone else reading, no matter what a trust deed agent tells you please make sure to clarify everything again with the actual trustee before you sign as it's only the opinion of the trustee that really matters. There are some good agents out there, and some that will say or do anything to get people to sign on the dotted line.

On the subject of the £3500 debt which you are being told is excluded, I'd be very interested to know under what part of the legislation your trustee is excluding this debt. All debt for which an obligation existed prior to the signing of the trust deed must be included, regardless of whether or not the amount had been calculated or not by that point.

I've no idea Kevin. This is what they told me. I received an injury on duty pension after being medically retired on October 2008. I was also in receipt of IIDB. Last March I discovered that I shouldn't benefit from both and told the Pensions Authority about this. Although I still get IIDB this is now deducted from my monthly pension. As soon as I found out about the overpayment, I told the agent about it who I believe informed the IP. I did not realise at the time of signing the paperwork or indeed understand that excluded creditor meant exactly that until I asked the IP about it when I received my letter demanding repayment from the Pensions Authority in January. This was the response I got to my e-mail from the Trustee:-

When the case was drafted, it was agreed that this debt would not be included as a creditor within the Trust Deed as we were concerned that by including them, it would affect the future pension payments that you receive.

Does this make any sense to you at all?

Thanks for your comments too Trust Deed Assistant. I understand that the Creditors have agreed to the sum being paid, but when signed, the expenditure that we were allowed plus the 25% surplus made living day to day almost bearable. Now that we have to repay this back and the 100% surplus is being utilised it is very difficult going forward. If only they had been clear right from the start!! We should have known better, we were already conned into a Debt Management Plan for 14 months prior to being sold the idea of a PTD. Never mind!! I'll just keep praying for our luck to change!

Never ever be happy to hear someone tell you that we will deal with x,y, or z when it happens. NO,NO,NO!!!! Get it down in writing so you know where you stand. Far too many times people get fobbed off by introducers and call centre staff telling them not to worry about things only to find out later on that suddenly things you were told wouldnt be an issue become a massive issue!!

Did you stick with the same firm for your TD after the DMP didnt work??

All your debt should have been included,not sure how they have managed to just discount in effect a creditor??

What company are you dealing with,it really does help others to make the right decision when it comes to phoning companies for help,they are all very nice before you sign,but many become distant and hard to deal with as soon as pen has hit paper??

I was never spoken to in a manner that I wasnt happy with during 42 months of dealing with RSM Tenon,in fact several times I had to tell my case manager to call me by my 1st name!!

Paul

Hi Paul,

Any visitor to the forum is welcome to mention the name of the trust deed firm they're using (or considering) assuming that they're prepared to take responsibility for their comments. That's a matter for them.

We really don't want to actively promote a "name and shame" culture though because it can be counterproductive and sometimes quite unfair.

For example LornaPTD has some significant and real concerns, but the root of most of the problems seem to be with the agent consulted at the start rather than the actions of the trust deed firm that she is using themselves?

As you and Kevin have pointed out though, the excluded creditor situation does seem a bit odd.

No Paul we changed Companies, but were introduced to the new Agent by a representative of the company that dealt with the DMP. I'm now sitting here panicking. We were told (again verbally) that our house would not be included in the Trust Deed and not to worry about equity etc. I'm now sitting reading the small print and are reading the exact opposite from what wee were again told. The agent at the time was so keen 'for our benefit' to try and get the house valued as low as possible. How naive have we been?? This obviously means that when re-valued there is going to be equity!! Oh FFS!!! What have we done??? Funnily enough the company are not listed on here as being reputable! Bugger!!

I am afraid that in my opinion there are more cowboys dealing in TD's and personal insolvency than there are good guys. Fortunately for anyone who finds this place first we can help direct people towards those good guys(and gals!!!)

Also introducers have no interest in whether you have been handed the right lifeline to deal with your debts as they get paid no matter whether your TD completes successfully or not.

If equity is set at the start of a TD,historically this was a good thing as values were rising but nowadays so many people have little or no equity,houses can often be left out of any trust deed,but this must be written into your offical paperwork.

Regarding the car,ours was valued at £500 at the start of the trust deed,and revalued at the end as having a zero value,but you can normally agree to pay so much a month after you have finished making your TD contributions to cover the value of the car. Please feel free to argue the toss with your trustee if the cars value isnt what was stated,if they dont play ball,offer to let them have the car!!!

Paul

I'm certainly no expert on pensions, but on the face of it I don't see why it should affect your pension going forward. Maybe it would be worth investigating this further with the Pensions Authority - it sounds like your trustee is making an assumption and whilst they might be correct it is surely worth checking given the cost to you.

I agree that naming and shaming a company where an introducer has been used can be unfair,but companies should ensure that the agents they use are fit and proper. In the last 4 and a bit years of dealing with insolvencies both in scotland and the rest of the UK I can say hand on heart that a hell of a lot of them couldnt give a stuff as long as they get their fee. Now if they didnt get a fee until the end of an insolvency you would soon clean up some of their practices(the dont worry about equity,overtime,porsche in the garage,villa in spain,the put this down for your expenditure, etc etc).

Yes the good ones are being tarred by my brush,but that is unfortunate. They get paid handsomely for their work,and if they all took more care in getting things right to start with we would see far less people on here dealing with problems after 3 years of faithfully making contributions!!

Paul