Welcome to the forum bigtoddy.

If you come into money or assets during a trust deed it's likely that they'll have to be paid over to help repay your creditors. That's one of the conditions attached to trust deeds and one of the reasons why creditors allow them to become protected.

This is usually pretty straightforward in the event of, for example, an inheritance. There is clearly an added complication where such assets aren't currently available to you, such as shares that will be kept in trust for some time before you have access to them.

I'm hoping that some of our trust deed provider representatives could share their thoughts on how such a situation would usually be dealt with and what/when a fair valuation point for the shares would be if they cannot be sold now.

It could get a wee bit complicated, however generally if things are held in trust then they are excluded. That said, the trustee could argue that the period be extended until you have full ownership.

You should certainly ask the question as they are a contingent asset.

Mark

Sorry I meant to say, you trustee would need to be able to justify extending by 3 or 5 years as the costs of extension would no doubt outweigh the actual benefit.

Mark

I think it is worth arguing your case with them here, bigtoddy. If the shares are held in trust and don't become yours until after the term of your trust deed then you have a good case to say that they should have no claim over them and should discharge you as you have complied with the terms of your trust deed.

At least they may be willing to negotiate a compromise if they realise that you aren't happy to just roll over on this.

Thanks for your advice.
When I spoke to them yesterday they said it was an asset that I have. They did say if I wasn't happy I could make them an offer and see what happens.
I thought when I volunteered for the trust they were going to help me. Not try and screw me over.
So the question I have now is how do I go about this. I have never missed a payment and agreed about the 7 months extension. But to get me to pay for something I don't have or pay for something which at the time I sell the shares may have dropped in value. The words of my deed manager was " thats the chance you take".
What do I need to say to them?

You should certainly argue the point and state that you have sought advice and been advised as follows:

The Shares are held in Trust and therefore are not an asset and do not vest in the trustee until such time as the shares legally vest. As this takes anywhere between 3 and 5 years, the Trustee would require to justify an extension of anything up to 5 years when the costs of such an extention would outweigh any value to the Trust Deed.

Advise that you will also seek, if required, an order in terms of S.24 PTD Regulations.

Mark

Thanks you for you advise. This is the letter I have sent and will let you know what the response is I get back.

Following our phone conversation on Monday 25th Nov, I would like to disagree re- the trustees increasing my term and wanting me to pay the equivalent value of the shares. I cannot pay for something that I don't own.

Hope to hear from you shortly

Hi bigtoddy.

I think that the following line...

"Advise that you will also seek, if required, an order in terms of S.24 PTD Regulations"

... was a suggestion from Mark to you to include mention of this subject in your letter, rather than being a line he was suggesting that you quote directly in the letter.

This is the reply I recieved this morning.

I have spoken with the Trustee who has advised that the shares are owned by you and do vest, they are a contingent asset and would need to be paid to the Trust Deed.

As advised on our call on Monday 25/11/13, should you wish to make a reduced offer on the shares I will speak to the Trustee to see if the offer is acceptable

Can anyone help me further in this matter. I still don't see how I have to pay for something I don't have. Its like me paying for a car but I wont get it for 5 years.

It might be in that case that you try to negotiate a compromise bigtoddy. It seems as though your case adviser has left open the door for this to happen, something Kevin suggested might be an outcome earlier in this thread.

Such an outcome would also, hopefully, result in you benefitting at the point in the future that you do have full control over the shares.

I think the strength of the argument is the viability of the trustee being able to extend a trust deed by 3 to 5 years until these are officially an asset. A contingent asset is something which cannot be formalised until a specific event ie the period passes and you gain ownership of the shares.

You could argue that being named in a will is a contingent asset, however i can't see a trustee keeping a trust deed open until someone dies!

Mark

Thanks Mark.
The main problem is they are saying that I have to pay NOW the value of the shares that they have been valued at. They say because they are held in my name in trust I will eventually get it it back. I don't have any proof that these are in my name. All I know is that they are held in trust. I don't have any paperwork to say I have these shares.
Can I argue the case that because they are classed as contingent assets then once I have them in my possession I am will to pay but since I don't have them then I am not willing to pay, or would this be in breach of the trust agreement?
Hope this makes sense?

Hi bigtoddy

I think its a valid argument as I cannot see how the Trustee can keep the case live for that period to get the value of the shares.

Mark

Hi bigtoddy,

Have you asked them what their intentions are if you are unable to come up with a proposal with regards to the shares?