Hello chrisf1957 and welcome to the trust deed forum.

Negotiation is probably not the best way to describe the situation. There are guidelines in place for trust deed companies and creditors as to what does and does not constitute "reasonable".

For reasons I'm not entirely comfortable with we're asked not to share these guidelines. However if you'd like to suggest the numbers you are thinking about I'm happy to let you know whether they fit within the "ranges" normally used.

The usual advice is to tell your chosen adviser what you really spend and what you really need. If any changes are required to make a protected trust deed viable they will tell you, and you should then weigh up whether the budget suggested is realistic for you to be OK for the three years that a trust deed normally lasts.

Hi hope no one minds me jumpiong on this thread but it seems to tie in with some concerns I have.

I've been reading the threads for a few days and getting more upset over what my partner has done.

He had a trustee that completed last year and he's been slowly putting himself back on track whilst we've been together.

A couple of weeks ago he confessed that he "bumped up" his expenses to avoid paying as he put it "too much".

I know he had a new job and moved to England. This led to a large pay increase, obviously partly offset by living in London. What he seems to have done is claim living expenses as a single occupier in a flat at the going rate. In fact he was co-occupying and splitting the rent. He says no ones harmed and that no one disputed his figures cos it was a reasonable amount.

Yes I said but you weren't paying that. I mean am I being too prissy about this?. He claims say ?ú1000 pcm but really cos its shared it's only ?ú500. the way i read it on here is that his creditors could rightly have expected a large chunk of this.

He's adamant that as long as you stay in the parameters it's fine. But to me this is fraud. I also suspect he had the occasional windfall payment.

He says not to worry and besides the Trustee is completed and no one can come back on him now.

But is this right?. I'm worried sick that his trustee could be reopened, is this possible?. That he could even be prosecuted.

Am I being unreasonable to ask him to come clean or is it really too much trouble and what is done is done as he says. He's a loving guy but I'm a bit scared by this bending the rules attitude.

How can someone just send in an expense form that doesnt have full evidence to support. Isn't that just putting temptation in the way?.

Why also is the system seemibly so slack that as long as figures "seem about right" based on a declaration then they go unchecked?.

Hope I make sense with this.

I want to make it clear I'm not critical of anyone in genuine hardship who has a trustee. Much as a care for my partner they have no kids, no dependants and I'm a) worried for them - I know everyone bends rules these days and maybe im just old fashioned and believe in ethics b) concerned that this kind of behaviour by a small number of people can ruin a good sensible solution for many.

I would just like some clear advice on whether this behaviour coming to light post discharge can alter things. I also think it's a sensitive issue worth discussing maybe not here but off line with professionals.

i've seen the criticsm of protected trusts by lenders. I think alot is unfair. They're are lots of people who really need this kind of help, but frankly I think my partner could of paid debts off. That puts me in a deep conflict between my personal beliefs and my concern for their well being.

i feel torn.

chrisf1957 - i'm a single person and i put down ?é?ú200 a month for food if that helps any.
nikki1978 - no offence, but if your partner had a trust deed and it's now finished and everyone is happy i can't see why your getting so upset about it.

Andy, thanks. Perhaps you're right, maybe it's partly about the fact I'm upset they lied and risked our relationship.

It's not chocs and flowers living with a Trustee, you're supportive but at the same time a lot of day to day financial pressures end up being burdened by the non-trustee alone. IE I still feel sick at the amount of rent I was solely responsible for as I could not have a joint tenancy. Buying a home? - forget it. The constant subbing out too in my case.

Maybe I am old-fashioned. He did misrepresent his expenses and avoided paying a lot back he could have reasonably been expected to. Certainly "we" didn't benefit as a couple from this action. I was still paying more of the bills, buying them clothes etc. Thinking money was much tighter than it was.

I can get over feeling a bit "used" and I know I'll get over the feeling I was just a walking credit card. It wasn't true nastiness just selfish and it was their tendancy for excessive spending that caused the debts in the first place. I didn't expect miracles overnight. I tried not to treat like a baby either, often I tried to get in the habit of lending, not to be patronising, but to help focus on what he really needed to buy rather than impulse.

You say it's all done and everyone is happy, Is it?. My question still stands - can this come back to haunt or does a successful discharge mean everything is now truly over. Even if irregularities did come to light. I just want reassurance this can't come back and effect them and as the "co-habiter" at one point - I can't be accused of fraud either.

I understand what you're saying, you think it's ok and i can respect your opinion. Don't Trustees owe their partners a degree of support in return and I think that includes being honest about what their doing esp if they're getting lots of help.

Hi nikki1978,

I'm not absolutely sure what actions might follow disclosure that an individual had lied about his/her circumstances during a trust deed after it has been completed. One of our trust deed company representatives will be able to answer that very soon.

From what you have written I cannot see you being in any way at risk or liable as a result of him misrepresenting his circumstances (and shortchanging his creditors while, at the same time, asking for their help with debt forgiveness).

Hi nikki1978,

I guess this is a bit of a moot point really as if the trust deed is finished then it is extremely unlikely that this would come to the attention of the former trustee now.

Insolvency practitioners have a duty to make reasonable checks on the information that they are given by debtors, but on a purely practical level not everything can be checked and there is a certain element of trust involved.

Your partner was committing an offence, and if the trust deed was still in place then I would imagine that your partner may be sequestrated instead. However, as the trust deed is over and done with then it is less straightforward. I guess the former trustee would inform the creditors of the information and they may be able to take some kind of legal action against your partner. However, I'm not a lawyer so don't know exactly what form this might take...

Thanks. I appreciate I've been very emotional about this and will be grateful for any info.

Leaving my experiences as a partner aside how do others feel about the expense system. Is it too open to temptation?. I'm not trying to excuse what can happen.

I'm really shocked that in many areas of life you have to provide evidence - benefits and such - but for something like this you may not need to. I just presumed that major expenses were supported by evidence. Tenancy etc.. I can understand round figures and acceptable amounts for bills etc. That seems sensible.

Ok.. that's good and not good.

To be entirely honest there are other things I'm not happy about, I cant discuss here but if I seek help professionally about those then the Trust business will have to come out. It' all tied in to it.

I want to look after my interests but I don't feel happy about doing so and it possibly leading to the kind of things you talk about. I have some thinking to do 🙁

Thanks for all your help.

Hello nikki1978,

There are checks in place at several different stages.

As you have identified this may not be 100% effective in every single case where, on a rare occasion, an individual is determined to misrepresent their circumstances and abuse the system.
Sadly abuses of systems set up to assist people seem to happen in all areas from time to time.

However in general the processes do seem to be very effective; this is the first time that I can remember this issue ever having been raised in this forum.