Hi Morks1

Honestly it all seems much worse than it actually is. You will be fine if you havent signed the actual Trust Deed document.

The key point is to take all the unknowns away and work to a plan that has a workable start date and a definite last date. 5 years in my opinion is too long.

Ensure the house is fine and out of the picture if it has no equity and after that there should be no concerns.

Mark

Hi Mark

I have submitted the form we are in agreement to speak with your company to sort this Trust deed out.

Thanks and kind regards

Hi Morks

I'll give you a call tomorrow and arrange a suitable day/time.

It will be fine, honest.

Regards

Mark

"Their ID Policy doesn't work and is legally incompetent"

Someone should tell the Joint Insolvency Committee as they state in their guidance to Insolvency Practitioners in Scotland in relation to Protected Trust Deeds:

The insolvency practitioner, (whom failing, a suitably experienced
member of staff) prior to the signing of the trust deed, should
always offer to meet the debtor personally. However the
practitioner, or suitably experienced member of staff, may
conduct the initial interview on the telephone.

Also,

5.2 Whether the debtor is interviewed in person or by telephone, the practitioner must satisfy himself that appropriate client identification and money laundering procedures have been
completed.

It may well be that Morks 1 has not been offered a face to face interview and clearly he appears unclear as to the details of what his trust deed are, so a face to face interview does appear preferable, but to state it is always a legal requirement and it is not competent to do an ID check without a face to face interview is clearly wrong. Many banks for example who also are required to satisfy money laundering requirements also open banks accounts etc, without face to face interviews.

The Money Laundering Regulations 2007 state:

5. ÔÇ£Customer due diligence measuresÔÇØ meansÔÇö
(a)identifying the customer and verifying the customer's identity on the basis of documents, data or information obtained from a reliable and independent source;

Also:

9. (3) Such verification may be completed during the establishment of a business relationship ifÔÇö
(a)this is necessary not to interrupt the normal conduct of business; and
(b)there is little risk of money laundering or terrorist financing occurring,
provided that the verification is completed as soon as practicable after contact is first established.

Interesting on a couple of points and of course subject to your interpretation.

The rules are quite clearly 'Identifying the customer AND veryifying the customer's identity on the basis of documents, data or information obtained from a reliable and independent source' It is my opinion and in the approach adopted by my firm that these are 2 separate issues.

On the other point, I am unsure if they offer face to face meetings, i will find out. I'm aware a number of firms who rely wholly on the telephone interview without offering face to face meetings and this in my opinion breaches the requirement to 'always offer'. Perhaps this is just interpretation.

Point is, when there is interpretation, there is doubt and then issues tend to arise as can be seen by the numerous posts on this forum. As a firm we follow a tight process to limit any 'unknowns' or doubts and it works for us. We don't rely on call centres and only senior staff will ever deal with people directly at the start, middle and end of the Trust Deed.

Mark

Well, considering their lack of staff in Scotland, I would be surprised if in reality they could conduct face to face interviews with all clients if they requested them.

However, that aside, its not a matter of interpretation. There is no legal requirement to carry out a face to face interview in statute, regulations or guidance. There is only a requirement to carry out due diligence and enhanced due diligence when the client is not physically in your presence when you carry out the identification checks. IP practices in administering a Protected Trust Deeds would usually satisfy these.

See Regulation 14
2) Where the customer has not been physically present for identification purposes, a relevant person must take specific and adequate measures to compensate for the higher risk, for example, by applying one or more of the following measuresÔÇö
(a)ensuring that the customer's identity is established by additional documents, data or information;
(b)supplementary measures to verify or certify the documents supplied, or requiring confirmatory certification by a credit or financial institution which is subject to the money laundering directive;
(c)ensuring that the first payment is carried out through an account opened in the customer's name with a credit institution.

There is a temptation when people work with the law to createrules that don't exist and say these are the law. Face to face meetings, however, are not a requirement.

With every respect, it is interpretation, by the very fact our interpretations are different. I am more that aware what is a legal requirement and what is guidance.

The guidance quite cleary states the Trustee should 'always offer' This has not been suggested by the Trustee as far as I am aware, so lets fall back on the default position. This is guidance, but not law, so why have it if you don't intend to use it.

Your cut and paste section clearly states 'identifying the customer AND verifying the customer's identity' We don't agree, so you cut and paste another section. Again open to interpretation.

I'm sure we could spend all day on this, however as stated where I have any doubts whatsoever, I adopt the belts and braces approach and leave nothing to chance so that individuals know exactly the process and know exactly what they are entering into.

I can only suggest your firm, whoever they may be, continue on the basis of your own processes if that works for you and you are happy with these processes and we will do likewise.

Mark

Hi Mark

I am reading about the fees before signing, is this something over and above what we need to pay,or is this payment included in the overall sum that is agreed on a monthly basis?

Thanks

Morks1

Hi Morks1

No, you should never in any circumstances pay up front fees for advice.

The Trust Deed is based on 36 x contribution or whatever time period is agreed before you sign anything. Trustee's fees are agreed by creditors annually and paid from the contribution payments.

Mark

Hi Mark

Sorry I ment after signing, is the fee's incorporated in the first months standing order or is this seperate? before the standing order gets paid to the creditors? As I note it is between 2500 and 4500 can this be added to the monthly payments as we don't have that type of cash.
This is all such a panic

Thanks

Morks1

Hi Mark

Thanks you have answered my question, I will get more insight from you tomorrow.

Thanks

Morks1

Lol Mark. I have no problem with offering an interview, it is clearly best practice and the SIP3A states it should be offered. No dispute.

The firm I work for always offers interviews and identifies clients in face to face interviews, but that is not the point.

The point is it is not legally incompetent to do otherwise. It has nothing to do with interpretation. I would think the fact the guidance countenances such a possibility is the first give away, the second is the heading to the regulation which is Where the customer has not been physically present for identification purposesand then explains how you verify their identity in such situations.

My issue is you cannot claim another firm's practices are legally incompetent (regardless of how much you and I may disagree with their alleged practices)and state such as a fact, based on your own subjective views . It isn't professional. I have quoted regulation and guidance to support my view, some of which are express provisions in regulations, not vague, ambiguous provisions, while you cop out and say its up to interpretation. I have years of experience of people doing this, claiming something is the law with little or no support for their position. I don't work for Payplan, I am not a fan personally, but I think its a bit reckless to start accusing some of their practices as legally incompetent without an iota of legal argument.

If you have pay as per you are saying then the company decide the installments on your salary and if you are the new comm-er then it will invest a little on you.So as your previous record what it decided is legal because you have signed the papers.

You have actually answered your own point.

Regulation 14(2) details ENHANCED checks where the person is not present. Think of this in 2 stages. The person is not present and sends you in a copy passport and bank statement. You are obviously sure at this point from his black & white photo that is the same person one of your sales team, who you have probably never met either, spoke to on the phone! No? Well let stage 2 Reg 14 (2) kick in and carry out these ENHANCED checks ie have someone certify the documents etc. For the avoidance of doubt enhanced would be checks over and above the normal policy adopted where circumstances do not meet the requirement.

As an unknown you talk of experience, I'm talking from example where a son attempts to portray himself as his father using the method of passport copy posted with bank statement copy. You would think DOB would pick this up, however apathy reigns I'm afraid and it's only picked up 2 years later during a credit check. The trust deed, legally incompetent as was the ID and method used.

As you're fond of cutting and pasting, please see HMRC's thoughts on the likelihood of impersonation and the need for ( here's that word again) ENHANCED checks;

5.1.5 Non face-to-face customers
Non face-to-face customers present an INHERENT RISK of impersonation fraud which businesses should also take account of in their internal policies and procedures. Regulation 14(2) of the Money Laundering Regulations 2007 requires that businesses apply enhanced due diligence measures, on a risk-sensitive basis, when they do not physically meet their customers (see Section 7.11.2).
Therefore, businesses MUST apply ADDITIONAL verification checks to mitigate the risk of impersonation fraud. These checks may include:

ÔÇó requiring additional documents, data or information to verify the customer's identity
ÔÇó applying supplementary measures to verify the documents supplied
ÔÇó requiring the first transaction to be carried out through an account in the customers name with a UK or EU regulated bank or one from a comparable jurisdiction.

PS please don't use LOL in your postings.